I posted a non-fiction essay and I got a few people saying they wished they hadn't been notified because of subscription to tags.
Maybe it was because you tagged your essay with a long list of fandoms and pairings that weren't mentioned in the piece at all. Many people follow multiple pairing and fandom tags through feeds or subscriptions and they would have been spammed over and over with your essay. Each time more irritating that the last as anyone hoping to see meta in the tagged fandoms would likely have been disappointed to click on the piece only to realise there fandom wasn't mentioned at all. Not to be rude but your piece specifically was brought up in many of the conversations I've read on this topic where people were concerned about meta being hosted; because a) you grossly misrepresented the content with your over tagging, and b) a lot of people felt this was the kind of personal rambling best confined to personal journals as it wasn't at all what they thought of as meta.
Multi-Fandom - Fandom, Sailor Moon, Avengers - Fandom, Batman - Fandom, Supernatural, Digimon, Star Trek, Final Fantasy, Animorphs, Xena - Fandom, Fullmetal Alchemist, Loveless, Harry Potter - Fandom, Criminal Minds, Death Note, The Eagle, Buffy, Sherlock, Suits - Fandom, Stargate Atlantis, White Collar, Psych, Common Law, teen wolf - Fandom, One Direction - Fandom, Fifty Shades of Gray, The Hunger Games, Panic! at the Disco
* Not Rated * Choose Not To Use Archive Warnings * Other * Complete Work
10 Sep 2012 Tags
* Author Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings * Kirk/Spock * Steve Rogers/Tony Stark * Rachel (Animorphs)/Tobias (Animorphs) * Gabrielle/Xena * Dean Winchester/Sam Winchester * Ishida Yamato/Yagami Taichi | Matt Ishida/Tai Kamiya * Agatsuma Soubi/Aoyagi Ritsuka * Edward Elric/Roy Mustang * Jensen Ackles/Jared Padalecki * Draco Malfoy/Harry Potter * Derek Morgan/Spencer Reid * Marcus Flavius Aquila/Esca Mac Cunoval * Sherlock Holmes/John Watson * Spike/Buffy Summers * The Joker/Bruce Wayne * Batman/Catwoman * Hermione Granger/Draco Malfoy * Harry Potter/Ginny Weasley * Thor/Merlin * Atlantis/John Sheppard * Derek Hale/Stiles Stilinski * Essay * Meta * Shit Old People Say * Get off my lawn * But really I mean stay on my lawn and invite all your friends
Just look at the list of tags you used for an essay that isn't actually about any of those fandoms and pairings. Freeform tagging is an awesome concept, but long term it will only work well if people like you don't keep mislabel their work with all the popular fandoms in the hopes of getting extra eyes on their work, as opposed to accurately labeling your content.
Excuse you, anon, "people like me"? Are you really going to go there? I asked several fandom friends before I posted what I should tag it as, and they all agreed to tag it with what I mentioned in the essay. I asked the people who complained if they had an alternative tagging idea, but nobody replied. I am more than willing to edit tags and to tag future essays differently, but the only way to do so would be for someone to leave a helpful comment, not a rude anonymous one. If you noticed, the point of my original comment here was to avoid irritating fans in the future. Obviously I don't want to cause people frustration. That should be clear by my original comment.
You mention that my essay doesn't belong on AO3 and should be on a personal journal. Well, here's the thing. You don't get a say in what gets put on AO3--not any one person decides that. If AO3 hosts fanworks that anybody creates, then any fanwork is welcome. Your opinion on me choosing to post my essay on AO3 is your own opinion, not mine, and I don't have to follow it. Not to be rude, but while I respect that not everyone is going to agree on everything, the idea that you think you can police who posts what where is both egotistical and erroneous.
As for posting on a journal, what do you have in mind? Most fans have left LJ and such, so really what's popular now is tumblr. But tumblr isn't very usable when posting essays imho. Pics, yes; anything written, not so much.
Anyway, I'm sorry that I offended/annoyed you and whoever else you spoke to about this. That wasn't the goal. In the future, if there's an issue, it's better to speak to the poster as opposed to leaving them in the dark.
I'm looking forward to seeing how AO3 resolves the tagging of non-fiction.
EDIT: I removed all the fandom and pairing specific tags since yours was the second anon complaint I got. You could be the same person making a huge deal over nothing, quoting secret conversations that never happened. I simply don't know. But in trying to keep a positive mindset and assume you're not a troll, I decided the essay was posted for long enough that the tags are somewhat irrelevant now. If you have further complaints with my use of tags such as "essay", "meta", & "multi-fandom", please state them in a mature and polite manner. Rude behavior benefits no one. Thank you kindly. :)
For writing, how about wordpress? Honestly, while what you posted does technically count as meta, it was more meta on your birthday and how fandom affected you personally than on fandom itself. Personal writing like that really should go in a journal, and overtagging it as you did with so many large fandoms and ships that many people are a part of was completely unnecessary. It seems as though your real issue is that you want attention, which is why you didn't post it on LJ or Dreamwidth, or tumblr, where text posts go unnoticed unless you're already a BNF. Not that there's anything wrong in wanting your voice to be heard, but a lot of people do find that kind of attention seeking tiresome.
I didn't want attention. It's not about me. The point of the meta was to stop fans from feeling shame at being in fandom. I used myself as an example because I know my own story. Others shared their stories in the comments. I hoped by posting it that fans could feel more comfortable with themselves. That's it. Fan shame is such an enormous problem that I constantly run into. I was hoping being open about my experiences would help others.
Honestly, I don't like attention on me personally. I'd hate to be a BNF. If I had known it was an issue, I would have not tagged it as such. Or edited the tags much earlier.
I'm sorry for any stress or pain I caused you or anyone else. I didn't realize tagging a fanwork was such a big problem. I'll definitely think twice before posting stuff on AO3 again.
Thinking twice is always a good idea anyway for a space that's meant to house works which are permanent and long-term, but after thinking twice keep posting.
Your voice is valuable and deserves its place in the archive. The anon comments are borderline bullying and definitely showing their privilege (an expectation that the archive should only hold what they find valuable).
Thanks for your support! I'm of the opinion that meta counts as permanent fanwork, so I never considered not posting it. I dislike the idea of people saying what is or is not allowed, though.
Anon comments usually are bullying and privileged.
Well, that's certainly more than a little disingenuous. If I suggest to a librarian at my local library that perhaps 'Harry Potter' does not, in fact, belong amongst the 'True Crime' novels where they have shelved it even though, yes, Voldemort was a very bad man who totally killed people, sure, what sort of privilege/power-relation do you imagine to be taking place there?
I posted it because I've encountered so much fandom shame that I couldn't ignore it anymore. I understand that everyone lives a different lifestyle, no one can be judged by anyone else's standards, but I was running into several posts a day (on LJ, DW, tumblr, twitter, etc) where fans expressed various negative opinions on how they viewed themselves and their fandoms. "I know I'm a freak, but..." "LOL nobody understands me!" "I wish I had fandom RL friends." "Fandom's like fight club. You don't talk about it." It just astounded me that so many fans had these ideas that seemed to only negatively affect them.
After considering it for a couple of months, I realized I was about to finish my 20th year in fandom and that maybe sharing my experiences would help some people feel less ashamed, less like fandom is a dirty little secret--which it clearly isn't given the popularity of things like ComicCon and shipping polls.
Posting my essay was never about bringing attention to me. It was always about bringing attention to the fact that there are literally MILLIONS of fans and so, no, we shouldn't be ashamed, we shouldn't stay quiet, & we're definitely not alone. Yes, it's my opinion, but more importantly, it's something some fans needed to hear.
I didn't realize there was an issue with posting meta on AO3. I'd seen meta posted before here and thought it was fine. Personally, I hate tumblr because it's impossible to navigate and posts seem to disappear. As for LJ, fandom as a whole seemed to be moving away from LJ and I hadn't used it in about a year. Trust me, if I had realized this was an issue, I wouldn't have done it.
I'm going to stop replying to this thread. The point of this post is not to discuss how I tagged one essay. This space could be used for the more helpful activity of discussing how meta should be handled on AO3. I already apologized and there's really nothing I can do about it now. I took down what seemed to be the tags the 3 anons had issues with. That's literally all I can do.
It's good to know that how meta is handled is being considered here. I hope a solution is reached soon. Any future essays/meta I may or may not post will be tagged minimally so as not to unintentionally frustrate users (if I decide to post here at all).
Also, I'm not sure if this is relevant, but some users such as myself rely on AO3 for most everything fandom related. I only get internet on my cell, and while tumblr & LJ take forever to load and eat my data, I find AO3 to be a much preferred site--it loads and data usage isn't too bad. So, yes, maybe it's easy for the vast majority of fans to switch between websites, but that's simply not true for everyone. I'm not suggesting we include reaction gifsets and the like, but the sooner clear rules are outlined for what's allowed and what's not, the better for everyone.
I really enjoyed your essay, and in fact I found it through your extensive tagging. It was one of the first meta things I read on the AO3, and it made me think the meta hosting was a great idea. I have no problem with this type of meta being housed by the AO3, or with the way you initially tagged. Like everyone else, I want proper and functioning media categories, but that has nothing to do with you in particular. Don't let the Anons, who are probably just one person, dictate what you do - there were far more comments on your essay that appreciated your post and tagging than those who didn't.
I haven't read your essay and apart from being slightly annoyed by anything that is heavily overtagged I have no opinion on whether it belongs on the Ao3 or not. (I think the Multifandom tag is a great idea and I hope this becomes a thing for meta that namedrops or list may fandoms, pairings and characters without discussing them in depth. Of course, I don't know if this applies to your meta...)
But this is exactly why I think we need clear policies on what is fanish nonfiction and what isn't: As for posting on a journal, what do you have in mind? Most fans have left LJ and such, so really what's popular now is tumblr. But tumblr isn't very usable when posting essays imho. Pics, yes; anything written, not so much.
I don't think any of this is an argument for why something should be on the Archive - because the Ao3 is not here to be the better fannish blogging platform and the proposed policies above make this clear. So don't let yourself be annoyed by anons interpreting stuff and instead look at the (proposed and later at the final policies) and decide if your meta fits the Archive policy or not.
Here's the thing, I hate the way the archive functions from a search/browse perspective. I think the freeform tag implementation has issues that are getting worse and making my experience of the archive less enjoyable. I'm frustrated and annoyed that user experience of readers is only now getting any attention at all. I don't think the users do whatever, and wranglers do whatever and never shall we talk it over way of handling tags is going to be sustainable or effective.
I'm also pretty damn sure that any work type filtering is a loooooong way off. I'm taking three Yuletides from now in the pool, and I consider that optimistic.
But you know who IS NOT at fault for all of that? The user you're berating for tagging in a way you disapprove of. They aren't at fault for how the archive works or doesn't, and they aren't at fault that how they chose to use it turns you into an anger ball. That's on you.
It is not up to other users to do things to make your experience on the archive what you want. It isn't up to them to not post things you don't like. It isn't this person's fault that you're subscribed to multiple tags and saw their header more than once. It sure isn't this user's fault that you find that irritating. And guess who's fault it isn't that the archive doesn't have a more sophisticated feed subscription set up?
It isn't this person's fault that their idea of how much relevant content warrants a tag doesn't correspond with yours. This user isn't even required to know how the bloody tagging system works in detail--I sure don't.
You don't get to assign them motives for their posting style and impugn them for it as justification for your public complaint.
There's lots of shit on the archive. Tonnes of it. And every single reader defines shit in a different way. There is never going to be an Archive of Our Own Patented Universal Shit Filter.
You have the responsibility for avoiding the stuff you don't want to see--users are not required to cater to you.
Oh, and here's the part of your copypasta job you left off--the summary (as it appears now):
Today is the last day of my 20th year spent in fandom. This essay is a summary of what I've learned over two decades. In short: if we all try just the tiniest bit, we actually CAN all get along.
Took off most tags due to two anon complaints. Such is the way of fandom, I suppose. I apologize for any annoyance the tags caused anyone browsing AO3 solely for fic.
WARNING: I spend some time discussing kinks, including non-con, furry, mpreg, necro, and more. I don't really get into them, but if even reading the word upsets or triggers you, then be forewarned.
Are you seriously trying to claim that this wasn't enough to clue people in who were looking for pairing-specific meta that this wasn't likely it? I think that essay is pretty much what it says on the tin.
In the future, try pointing your irritation and frustration in the right direction (Hint: it's not individual OTW volunteers' fault either) and don't troll from the meme.
I think that essay is pretty much what it says on the tin.
To give some context, this essay was at the top of a fandom (probably more than one, given its high counts) sorted by kudos, hits, and comments sort since almost immediately after it was posted. The essay included exactly one word remotely related to the fandom I had followed and searched for: "pedo" after the name of a pairing. I think it not too much to ask that someone write at least a sentence about a subject before tagging with it.
The Archive is not responsible for figuring out what readers want to read, but 1) since its current plan for mistagging issues is to tell us to engage with each other, we are doing our best to engage each other and create community norms and 2) there may be no "shit" filter but if you are arguing there ought to be no relevance filter, there is zero point to tagging left at all. This was not a grey case of someone not executing a trope or pairing, etc., to readers' taste, and if it was I wouldn't be complaining about it. This was a blatant and admitted example of tagging to receive attention from people (as noted here) who the writer knew were not going to have glanced at their personal thoughts otherwise.
Since AO3's decision on tagging conflicts is... having us discuss it in comments, and the writer previously ignored a more concise comment to the effect of "this is mistagged", what else could anons have done? I think this is a very relevant example of why the implementation details on meta should have been decided before allowing it onto the archive.
+1. I don't advocate the anon borderline bullying above, but since there is apparently no higher authority to deal with issues of categories being spammed with content not applicable to them, addressing the poster seems the most sensible solution. The tags were changed and the user says they won't do it again, so mission accomplished and we probably shouldn't continue to harass them.
I don't see how this is different from fiction. If someone posted a fic tagged with like 20 popular fandoms and pairings, that barely mentioned most of them if at all, I think the community would respond in the same way. If meta posters seem more likely to do this, it isn't the community's fault for still reacting the same as they would to an offending fic.
You make a very interesting and valid point, anon. Though it is currently impossible to retrofit works that were uploaded with incorrect tags, the above example (which seems very familiar to me) would be the reason for a complaint to Abuse. Though that requires some action on the reader's part, this is the kind of thing that is meant for Abuse -- which can do something about mis-tagged or misreperesented work. But changing the tags is dependent on notification.
Okay, but the FAQ above says that the AO3 won't enforce rules about tagging for "relationship or other tags." If Abuse is willing to do something about mis-tagging in some cases, it would be nice to have a statement in the FAQ about what kinds of mis-tagging can be reported. Because right now the FAQ says "don't bother us, we can't enforce anything but work type," which is not going to encourage people to notify Abuse rather than arguing with the work's author in comments.
I agree with you, Penknife. We're not shy about investigating incorrect tagging, and the FAQ probably could be more clear about this point. I can tell you that we have had cases of this sort, and the policy is to leave elaborate tagging alone, even if to us it makes no sense, because in a sense it's part of the fanwork. However, if there's misleading information about fandoms we will intervene.
Hi, let me respond officially as Abuse Chair. The person above writing under Abusemember is not accurate. We investigate EVERY case that comes before us. Sometimes the complaint is actually a Support or Legal case, and under those circumstances we will involve other committees. But I can tell you after three years on the committee no complaint is ever ignored. Not sure why "Abusemember" would say otherwise -- and I doubt that person is actually a member of the Abuse team. We are a small team, but I like to think we're pretty effective, and if (when!) meta is included in the Archive and new and different issues arise, we will deal with them or grow as needed. As for new volunteers, I recommend you drop a note to the Volunteer Committee at the OTW to ask about the status and the process.
Comment on Fandom nonfiction: seeking feedback
anon (Guest) Thu 14 Mar 2013 03:17AM UTC
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kowaiyoukai Thu 14 Mar 2013 04:22AM UTC
Last Edited Thu 14 Mar 2013 05:38AM UTC
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